This week, we’re talking with LA Public Press city reporter Elizabeth Chou, who’s been reporting on a motel in Chatsworth where dozens of formerly-unhoused Valley residents now live. Mayor Karen Bass recently held a press conference at the hotel… but the residents weren’t invited to the press conference, or even told what it was about. Instead, they were told they had to stay in their rooms and listen through the windows. And some reported leaks during Hurricane Hilary on Sunday. Plus, headlines from this week’s news, including another Hillside Villa update, and news about Measure J, the encampment on Aetna Street, and your local tenants union.


Nancy: You’re listening to Smogland Radio, broadcasting from the motels, tropical storms, and mini-markets of Los Angeles. 

I’m your host, Nancy Meza.

Welcome to a new episode of Smogland Radio, a production of LA Public Press. Each episode, we’re gonna be going on a little journey across LA together.

This is your news podcast about the city we all hate to love and loooooove to hate. 

But first… Smogland Radio is made possible by our donors and supporters. If you haven’t done so yet you can become a supporter at

And now, here are the headlines from this week’s news.

Protesters: Hillside Villa is our place we will not be displaced

Nancy: Twenty-one tenants from Hillside Villa were served with eviction notices this month. That’s the low-income apartment complex in Chinatown that has been fighting their landlord to keep rents affordable. 

Each tenant was ordered to pay over ten-thousand dollars within three days or leave their apartments.

The tenants have been fighting enormous rent increases for the past four years. 

One recent report found that over the next several years, more than ten-thousand apartments in LA County are gonna lose protections that keep rents affordable. And since pandemic eviction protections have now ended… tenants who can’t pay their rent are more at risk of getting evicted and becoming homeless.

At an emergency press conference – LA City Councilmember Eunisses Hernandez pledged her support for Hillside Villa tenants.

Eunisses Hernandez: So I just wanted to show that I’m in solidarity with you. We’re with you in person, we’re with you in person. We’re with you in city hall.

Hillside Villa tenants have started raising money for eviction defense. They also have a message for their landlord, Tom Botz.

Tenants: Botz, you thought we were playing? Now we’re gonna fight. Fight fight fight! Housing is a Human Right.

Nancy: Speaking of evictions… the city controller’s office says LA landlords have filed for eviction against tens of thousands of tenants over the past several months. Many more evictions are expected next month… as more pandemic protections for tenants continue to expire.

These lawsuits might turn into an eviction wave that could result in thousands of people becoming homeless. 

Ideally, anyone facing eviction would be able to have a lawyer defend them in court, but that’s often not the case in LA. But if you have received an eviction notice, that doesn’t mean you have to go through this alone.

LA Tenants Union member Tony Carfello recommends talking to your neighbors to see if they’re facing eviction too. 

Another important piece of advice – if you get an eviction notice, respond as soon as you can. Tenants might have to answer in as little as five days to fight the eviction.

Tony Carfello: If somebody doesn’t know that, the date will pass and they’ll just get a default judgment against them. And before they know it, they’ll have a sheriff’s notice and then they’ll be, oh, oh no, how do I work against this?

Nancy: And… in case you’re wondering, the time to join your local tenants union is NOW!  

The Los Angeles Tenants Union has 12 autonomous chapters. You can reach them at LA Tenants Union on social media or at

And… A California appeals court has ruled Measure J constitutional… That’s the LA County ballot measure that requires 10% of local revenue to go to alternatives to incarceration. In other words, that money CANNOT go to the police or jails.

LA County Voters approved this measure in 2020. But a group led by the sheriff’s union filed a lawsuit to block it. And an LA Superior Court judge ruled Measure J unconstitutional… saying only county officials can make specific budget actions.

Now, a court of appeals has reversed this decision.

Despite the lawsuit, the LA County Board of Supervisors has been complying with Measure J so far. They’ve invested $400 million in alternatives through the Care First Community Investment Fund. 

And activists say the supes should “follow the full spirit of Measure J” by budgeting even more money for alternatives to incarceration.

And… in a beautiful act of solidarity, community members successfully stopped an encampment sweep in Van Nuys that was supposed to take place last week.

Activists and more than a dozen medical students showed up at 6 in the morning to defend encampment residents against the sweep… which often involves sanitation workers throwing out unhoused people’s tents and belongings. 

Activist: Ah, damnit, they’re here.

Activist: Are we barricading or no?

Nancy: Officials from the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority also showed up… but it was unclear if they had lined up housing for residents. 

Organizers were able to get the sweep downgraded to a spot clean. That means the city takes residents’ trash but doesn’t threaten to throw away their personal belongings. 

Aetna Street residents say they want to be asked about what they need to keep their encampments clean. But one encampment resident said that didn’t happen in this case… and that they only had two days notice to prepare for the sweep that would’ve likely displaced them from an encampment where many residents have lived for years.

LA Public Press reporter Elizabeth Chou was there and captured this audio.

Activist: We live to see another day.

Activist: We gotta monitor them but they said, yeah, we’ll take the trash out today. We’re like, why not every day!

Nancy: And now, let’s get on with the show.

About a month ago, a whole bunch of elected officials showed up at a Travelodge motel in Chatsworth. In the San Fernando Valley.

They were there because Mayor Karen Bass had called a press conference. To announce that a whole bunch of money was coming to the Travelodge. $400,000, to be exact. 

The motel was getting money because it wasn’t really a Travelodge anymore. A couple years ago, the motel became part of a state-funded program called Project Homekey.

Over the past couple years, hotels and motels like the Travelodge have become part of LA’s official strategy around homelessness. There are various programs that offer unhoused people rooms in hotels and motels — there’s one called Project Roomkey… a program called Inside Safe… and Project Homekey. Which is supposed to be a little more permanent.

But there have been issues with all of these programs, including Project Homekey… and including this Travelodge specifically

And including on the day of Karen Bass’s press conference… when residents of the motel said they were essentially locked in their rooms until the mayor and the cameras left.

Los Angeles Public Press city reporter Elizabeth Chou [Joe] recently published an investigation into the Travelodge and the press conference that day.

And she’s here now to talk us through it. Liz, thanks so much for joining us.

Elizabeth Chou: Thanks for having me.

Nancy: All right. So let’s start off with the basics. Can you tell us what Project Homekey is, how it came about and what it’s supposed to be doing?

Liz: Project Homekey is actually an offshoot of a program that many people may have heard of called Project Roomkey. It was started during the pandemic, and it was using federal emergency dollars to help people who don’t have houses to shelter in place during the COVID-19 pandemic. It also doubled as a way for different municipalities, including Los Angeles to expand the amount of shelter that they could provide to people who are unhoused, it really created a lot more shelter for people. And it was the kind of shelter that actually was very popular. Previous to that there was only mostly congregate shelter, which didn’t provide much privacy.

There wasn’t any walls that separated people. And obviously, during the pandemic, you can’t have that as well, because of the coronavirus. That then became Project Homekey because there was funding available to be used on a more permanent version of that using existing motels. It was thought of as something that could really help people who had nowhere else to go. But unfortunately, the conditions there haven’t been as promised. And so there’s been some issues around how people are treated and the services that they get there.

Nancy: Okay, we’re definitely going to get into that. But first, I want to talk about this specific Travelodge in Chatsworth, that’s part of Project Homekey. How long have people been there? And how did they end up there?

Liz: This Homekey is actually at a hotel or motel called the travel lodge in Chatsworth, it’s on Devon. Sure. It’s known as the diminisher. Lodge as well. And it’s just kind of like a regular motel that was purchased by the city. And so it’s now run by a service provider called Volunteers of America, Los Angeles, it’s met a pretty big need for people in that area, which is in the northwest, San Fernando Valley.

Nancy: And this is a location where Mayor Karen Bass recently had the press conference, right. So let’s talk about that press conference. How did the residents of the hotel end up finding out about it?

Liz: Yeah, so that’s the really interesting thing about this is, that the residents actually weren’t told officially about the press conference, they had to kind of put it together themselves. 

And some interesting things happened during the week, leading up to the press conference. 

On Wednesday, before the news conference, which was on a Friday, one of the residents was abruptly kicked out, she was given only 15 minutes at first, and she had to negotiate to get like 30 minutes. So there didn’t seem to be any reason given to her at the time about why she was getting kicked out. And she was told that she would be transferred to another hotel across the city, in Chinatown. So she said, Well, that doesn’t work for me. So she instead stayed in the area and now lives in a RV with a friend. That happened on Wednesday. 

And then on Thursday, the operator of the Project Homekey went up to several people who live there and said — Hey, we’re having a field trip on Friday to the beach, anyone in? And so people were very surprised by this offer because this is not something that typically gets offered to them. They were very suspicious of it. Almost no one took them up on the offer. 

And then on Friday, they went about their morning, one woman was about to go walk her dog. And she was told to go back to her room. And she also saw a caution tape set up around their rooms. And she thought, wow, what’s going on right now? So she called a neighbor down the hallway. And said, did someone call 911, is the ambulance coming? And the neighbor had heard that the mayor was there. So she said, hey, the mayor’s here. And so this woman, she went  and asked, Hey, can I go check it out? And her door monitor told her, no, actually, you have to go inside and well, you can listen through the windows.

Nancy: I think we actually have tape from an interview that you did with the resident about that day. Let’s pull that up.

Travelodge resident: They told us we can listen to the window. Listen through the windows? I don’t even know how to describe how I felt. Holed off in a room and not — you know what I mean? Like, like we’re pieces of crap.

Nancy: Wow. So the day arrives, right press conference day arrives, which is Friday, July 21. And Mayor Karen Bass is out in front of the Travelodge, and she’s announcing funding to turn the motel into permanent housing. 

Karen Bass: And I want to thank my colleagues that are standing side by side with Assemblywoman Schiavo, Senator Stern, Senator Menjivar, Assemblywoman Carillo, Supervisor Horvath, Councilmember Lee, this is what happens when we all stand together.

Nancy: So Bass is out in front naming everyone that’s standing with her literally, by name. But she’s also saying that she’s got $400,000 in funding to start a process of converting the motel into more permanent housing. So while Mayor Bass is outside announcing this and holding her little press conference, what’s going on with the residents inside the motel?

Liz: I talked to several residents there, and they said that when they would leave the room, the door monitors would tell them no, they actually have to go back in. So I said earlier that there was a woman who was trying to walk her dog. And so she had to bring her dog back in. And she stayed in there for about 45 minutes. And then it was, you know, too much for her poor dog. She had to take her dog out because her dog really needed to pee. So she snuck out. She actually — like in the clip that we just heard — she did find out that the mayor was there. She clearly wanted to go out and see what’s the big deal, but she was told to go back in. 

And when she heard that, when she was told that she felt really disrespected and hurt by that. This one woman actually told me like, if they had been able to go to the press conference, what if they had something good to say, you know, and so actually, a lot of them told me that they’re very grateful for having a room where they had a roof over their head, and they had some privacy. So yeah, so I guess I mean, that wasn’t the case for everybody — obviously, there was one woman who said that actually, the conditions there are so bad, that they’re really no different from being in a tent on the street. But others, you know, they said that, you know, we are grateful, it’s just that we wanted a chance to be able to talk about some concerns and some improvements that they had in mind.

By the time I started to interview people about what happened, you know, a few days later, they actually — some of them didn’t even know what the press conference ended up being about. I had to explain to them that the announcement was that the motel will be getting about $400,000 in state funding for renovations to make improvements. When I told one woman this, she actually started to laugh. She was incredulous about the money. So the way she responded was that, okay, they need to be spending that money on our rooms, which need a lot of repair. So she was very distrustful of the money being used in the right place.

Nancy: And I would imagine that these are the kinds of questions and feedback that Mayor Bass and her team, or the folks running the police would want to hear from folks that are actually living there. But as you’ve heard from residents, the service provider, VOA, Volunteers of America, is actually making things more difficult for folks living at the Travelodge right now. And that’s not all they’re dealing with. People were also worried that the new funding might lead them to being displaced from the Travelodge. Is that right?

Liz: Right. So the funding is supposed to be used to help them convert the Project Homekey site — which is a temporary site at the moment — into a permanent housing site. It may not seem evident at first why this is a bad thing. But what the residents told me was that the manager of the Project Homekey site has told them that they would no longer be able to live at the site once it becomes permanent. And so they were told this on several occasions, apparently. And so this obviously was in the back of their mind when they learned the news of what the funding was going to be used for. 

It’s actually not that uncommon for when a Project Homekey becomes permanent, that people are displaced. So these sites when they become permanent, it’s usually permanent supportive housing. And that type of housing includes both housing and also services, which include, like maybe a therapist or a caseworker. And so not everyone who would be staying at a Project Homekey would actually qualify for something like that, you know, like, permanent supportive housing site is not like something that is for everyone. And so often, you know, advocates will tell me that when these conversions happen, some people may not even be able to come back, you can see how like when, when people were told the reason for the funding, it didn’t necessarily mean that their lives would improve. In fact, they became worried that the funding might be used to displace them, basically, and they would be back out on the streets.

Nancy: Right. I know, especially because funding is coming. And one of the things folks wanted to bring up, or just the different conditions right at the hotel. So what are some of the things that you heard from folks at the Travelodge, in terms of conditions that they would have wanted to bring up to my Bass if they had the opportunity, right?

Liz: So the conditions aren’t great. The residents I interviewed had, like a litany of different issues that they had with living there. But I think it all came down to them feeling like it was a very depressing place to be, they often talk about how stressed they would start to feel once they walked on to the location, onto the site. And so I think what contributes to that is that they feel like they’re being treated like children, and they have rules there that are nonsensical, or sometimes applied and fairly. 

So one of the main issues that I heard about was a lot of complaints about the quality of the food and their ability to cook for themselves. And so they actually can’t cook for themselves. They can’t keep food in refrigerators, so they don’t have refrigerators in their rooms. And they also only have one communal microwave that they all share, which the week that I talked to them had actually broken. And for a lot of people who have health issues, that’s a big problem, like some people actually make ice boxes of their own, which means they have to buy ice, which is expensive. And so that’s a big one.

And it kind of is one of the big things that contributes to how they feel when they’re there. But there’s also other, I would say, pretty unusual rules that they have, for instance, is they’re not allowed to have regular cloth towels — actually towels are considered contraband. So they get handed paper towels every couple of days or so. So they’re expected to dry off with these giant institutional looking paper towels. And one person actually gave me one of those napkins that you see at like a diner or something right? At a restaurant, he said, It’s like this, it’s like a, it’s one of these towels little little like thin towels that you use.

And I know this is not uncommon at Project Homekeys, but people don’t have their own keys, they have to ask staff to let them into the rooms, which as long as staff, you know, let them into the rooms quickly, it’s fine. But if staff is rude, which the people I interviewed often say is the case, it can take a long time for them to even get into the rooms. So one person told me that they needed to use the restroom and clean their room, and they had to wait a long time for someone to let them in. 

I think one of the most serious ones that I heard was that the people there actually have tried to — but have never been able to get — the phone number for the front office. Which is something that they say something that they wish they had when they have an emergency, there was two people who told me that they needed to get some medical attention. One person had an ulcer, and she was screaming to get her neighbor to run down to the office to get help. And then another person had an issue with her leg and she was also screaming. So like in those cases, they’re wondering, do I need to call 911, have an ambulance show up. But they are also reluctant to do that because calling 911 is a big to do, you know, a big fuss and they don’t want to create a big fuss. And then if they do, the staff could get angry at them and they don’t want that.

Nancy: Right. That all makes sense. Okay, I want to go back to talking about folks’ experience living in the Travelodge. I know there was something that happened on the Fourth of July that a couple of people told you about where residents came together to organize in defiance of some of the staff and the rules that are imposed on them. Can you tell me what happened on the Fourth of July?

Liz: So several other people there got together to do this Fourth of July banquet. They cooked hotdogs, hamburgers, potato salad, but they didn’t have a lot of resources to do that. And the way they did it was they went over to a parking lot next to the motel. And one guy set up an electric skillet, a really small one that, you know, had enough room to cook for patties at a time, and it was connected to his car. And so they made enough food for 30 people. And they also had leftovers. And they said this is one of the best meals after the best meal that they’ve had at the motel. And it was one of the nicest days that they had there. I recorded an interview with Linda and another resident where they talk about their Fourth of July celebration. 

Resident: A good meal, like a banquet meal, and they wouldn’t allow us to have that.

Liz: What do you mean, they didn’t allow us allow you to have that?

Resident: They tried to stop us. But we did it anyway.

Nancy: Wow, I think it’s amazing when that right that they did this as an act of defiance or just like we’re gonna have a good communal meal together. I feel like what I’m seeing is like the way the staff at the motel kind of approaching folks is really similar how the city of LA right approaches homelessness, which is really through the intent to criminalize and you know, thinking that people need to live under these very strict and also honestly infantilizing roles, right. So we actually have some tape that you recorded, one of the residents speaking about this, and how just these very vague rules make them feel at the hotel. So let’s bring it up.

Resident: It’s bad enough to be homeless. And then it’s another thing for them to treat us like criminals, and to treat us like dogs here. That’s uncalled for, we are human beings, no different than they are. We have a heart and we have feelings too. Just because we were homeless at one time doesn’t make us any different than they are. And I, for one, refuse to be treated like a damn criminal.

Nancy: Wow, that’s very powerful when I know that many residents right have Project Homekey and other similar programs have talked about these carceral conditions that they’re subject to. Can you talk a bit about that list and when you’ve been hearing from folks?

Liz: it’s something that a lot, I think, for them contributes to how it feels to be there. A lot of them say that they would rather stay away from the motel. And then when they come into the motel, the stress starts to set in, like they start getting anxious, because of the rules, because they don’t know whether or not the way they’re behaving could get them into trouble and therefore, potentially get them kicked out. So they’re always on alert when they’re there. You know, we just heard Linda saying that she feels like she’s being treated like a criminal. And there’s actually a lot of laws that are in place in Los Angeles, that makes it a crime to be homeless.

Even though they were perfectly willing to move into the motel. You know, there are still these laws that exist that make it seem like people need to be forced to leave the streets, when in actuality, there usually is not enough places for people to move into, you know, like they the reason that they they do accept the offer to be in the shelter, you know, to be in this motel is because they do feel that it would be it could be an improvement on their on the conditions that they have on the street. I know I know people always talk about why wouldn’t you want to accept any kind of shelter? Why would you want to live on the street? People don’t actually want to live on the street. But they’ve had to and they have had to deal with a lot of the uncertainties, a lot of the dangers of being on the street.

And so what they want when they come into a motel is that they want those kinds of dangers and uncertainties to be cut back, you know, they want to be able to, to put their things into place, and then not have it disappear. Or they want to be able to have you know, like a shower, bathroom. But they also want support in order to, you know, find housing in order to address health issues that they’ve had to they’ve had to hold back on addressing during their time on the street. So that’s what people would like to see. But during my interviews with people at this motel, they said that they get very little help getting services. They don’t get help with their health issues, they don’t get help with getting housed or finding a place, there’s one person who told me he goes to the library every day to look up housing, that he can apply for, like he goes every single day. 

Nancy: And I would just say also to where it’s natural for people to want to have a say in their home and how it’s being run. Right? That’s kind of an important thing. And for our unhoused neighbors, right, these are things that are already happening, right, are already happening with folks that you trust and things and they themselves know what processes or what things do work, right, and what doesn’t work?

Liz: Yeah, I think the best source for trying to understand what could be a good alternative is usually, I think, to talk to people who are unhoused, you know, they’re usually the ones who are educating me about what it’s like to live in a community into, and how a community could be run, because that’s what they’ve actually had to do, they had to find their community, they didn’t just happen to live somewhere and try to meet their neighbors, they actually had to choose people that they want to live around, they have to understand who they can trust, and who they can depend on who will do certain things. While you know, this person is a great cook, and you know, or this person, like helped me build this tent or this makeshift shelter.

And often, they also figure out a way to resolve conflicts with that, you know, they want everything to be peaceful. So that’s something that you know, people immediately always tell me like, they always have ideas for how, how things should be done. If they were sheltered if they were living in a shelter.

So if we were to look at the news conference and see who was there, it was mostly the elected officials. And you didn’t get a lot of the most important voices there who are the unhoused people. And they were right in the center of the motel where there were so many people who could help them understand how a place like that could be improved.

Nancy: So what are some of the other models that you’ve heard from folks on the ground, or some other models that might be better in terms of, you know, just making sure that our unhoused neighbors feel safe and just feel calm when they’re in their new homes?

Liz: One good example, I think, is Echo Park Lake. Echo Park Lake, I mean, I know people were saying, you can’t have this encampment there, because it’s supposed to be used as park, but it was still being used as a park. But people are also using it as a place for their community. They had a communal cooking area, they had showers, they had a community garden. And so it was also functioning as a community. And it was not a sanctioned community. But it was nevertheless a place that people felt at peace that they could feel like it was their home.

And that’s, you know, kind of the, the opposite of what a lot of the people that are interviewed, was saying about living at the Travelodge, and even then, some of them would talk to me about how they would do these July 4th barbecues, and also maybe planting some flowers, which they were also told they couldn’t do.

Nancy: Right. So it seems like both the city and the nonprofits actually have a lot to learn from unhoused people about how you manage and build community. And you know, they could look at Echo Park Lake as a great example of how you do that. Thank you so much for all the important work you’re doing Liz and covering the city. We’re going to be following up with the story. And of course keeping folks updated. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Liz: Thanks for having me.

Liz: Hi, so, this is Liz. I am, recording this on August 20th, Sunday, which I think a lot of people will remember as the day that tropical storm Hillary was headed towards us. Right now it’s around 4 p.m. and I think the eye of the storm is still hanging around in San Diego at the moment.

But, there’s already been a lot of downpour. And so I just wanted to let you know that, I got a text from one of the residents today at the Travelodge, and, it looks like, they’ve also been having quite a day, and it might be actually a bit crazier than most. Here’s the first text I got.

Okay, so, yeah, it says — Good afternoon, Liz. I hope that you are staying dry. I hope I’m not interrupting anything, but people over here at the Travelodge are having a hell of a problem with their roof leaking from their storm. It’s not the first time either. And so she goes on to talk about how one of her neighbors wanted to get a large paper towel from the office and come to find out, they had run out of the paper towels.

So these are the bath towels that I was talking about in my interview with Nancy that they are given every couple days or so, because they’re not allowed to have terrycloth towels. Which are considered contraband. So yeah, now they’re out of the paper towels. And so, this neighbor of hers, instead got a large, black, plastic trash bag from the office.

So right now they’re catching the rain, any leaks in the rain, from their room, which, starts up whenever the rain gets bad. 

Resident: So – 

Liz: Here’s some tape from an interview I did with her.

Resident: I went up and I asked for towels and they said they’re out of towels. And they’re giving me trash bags, like a trash bag is gonna be able to catch water. 

Liz: You know, it’s been kind of a mess in general, for a lot of people over at the Travelodge.

And, when I asked them if they felt like they were prepared for the rain, um, a few of them said, yeah, based on, like, just, themselves preparing, but they don’t feel like the staff at the Travelodge has actually done anything to help everyone get ready. You know, they said that they didn’t think that there were any supplies that were being made available for them, as you can tell, like, the fact that they don’t even have paper towels, likely will make them worry about the staff having anything else, like, prepared, you know, just a plan in general about what would happen, given any adverse circumstances, and then just, the earthquake kind of just reminding people about the ongoing worries that they’ve been having about the, you know, the condition of the building that they’re in.

You know, yeah.


Nancy: That was LA Public Press city reporter Liz Chou, talking about her reporting on the Travelodge in Chatsworth.

We’ll be riiight back.

We’re gonna end this week in Echo Park, outside a 7/11.

Have you ever noticed that some 7/11’s will play really loud and annoying classical music on the speakers outside the store?

They’ve been doing it for years now.

The reason — according to 7/11 — is to make it uncomfortable for anyone — but especially unhoused people – to hang out outside the store.

It’s just one of a million things that the city and businesses do that are specifically designed to make unhoused people’s lives unlivable.

And it even has a name, it’s called “hostile infrastructure”. You’ve probably seen this around… like park benches with railings in the middle to make it impossible for people to lay down, bus stops without shading or seating, Metro buses being unbearably cold so that your ride is the most uncomfortable it can possibly be.  

And hostile infrastructure doesn’t only affect our unhoused neighbors. We all live in this city. And making public space more hostile for unhoused people is ultimately making it hostile for all of us. 

LA Public Press publisher Matthew Tinoco captured this audio outside a 7/11 on the corner of Sunset and Rosemont.

Smogland Radio is produced by Phoenix Tso and Carla Green. I’m your host, Nancy Meza. We’re a production of LA Public Press, a non-profit newsroom for Los Angeles.

Eduardo Arenas made our music, and Jaime Zacarias made our show art. Special thanks to the Robinson Space where we record this podcast! .

Additional music by Epidemic Sound.

Also – we’re a newsroom funded entirely by donations! 

If you like the work that we do, you can support us by becoming a member at slash donate. 

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Thanks so much for listening.

We’ll see you back here in a couple weeks for our next episode.