This week, we’re digging into why we have just fourteen truly public bathrooms in Los Angeles. Reporter Maylin Tu talks about the history of those fourteen bathrooms, why we don’t seem to be getting many more (even with the Olympics looming), and how it all relates to the criminalization of poverty and homelessness. Plus, we have a eulogy — for now! — of another historic Little Tokyo business: Anzen Hardware.
Transcript
Nancy: You’re listening to Smogland Radio, broadcasting from the hardware stores, ghetto birds, and secret pee corners of Los Angeles.
I’m your host, Nancy Meza.
Welcome to a new episode of Smogland Radio, a production of LA Public Press. Each episode, we’re gonna be going on a little journey across LA together.
Remember that this is your news podcast about the city we all hate to love and loooooove to hate.
But first… Smogland Radio is made possible by our donors and supporters. If you haven’t done so yet, you can become a supporter at lapublicpress.org/donate.
If LA Public Press dropped an album today, our hit single would be called “nowhere to go”.
Why? Because in LA, when nature calls while you’re out and about, there’s literally nowhere to go!
We also know that the acronym for our newsroom literally means pee… LA Pee Pee. And you know what, we’re not even mad about it!
And this week on Smogland Radio, we’re leaning into our identity. We’re LA Pee Pee. And we’re dedicating this entire show… to bathrooms.
We’re joined now in the studio by Maylin Tu, who’s spent a LOT of time looking into public bathrooms in LA, and why we have so few of them.
Nancy: Alright, so first of all, thank you, Maylin, for joining us on Smogland Radio.
Maylin: Yeah!
Nancy: As a bus rider and as a bus person it just really matters to me the lack of bathrooms or just the bathroom situation in LA. So I’m just really glad that you’re here and we’re having this conversation. So yeah, let’s just get into it. So we all know it’s super hard to find a functioning bathroom, let alone a bathroom in Los Angeles especially when you need one. So what do you consider to be a public bathroom and why are there so few of them in our city?
Maylin: Yeah, so, for the purposes of the article that I wrote I’m considering public bathrooms as bathrooms that are in the public right of way, that means they’re on the sidewalk, so they’re not part of a library or part of a park, they’re kind of their own thing. And so there are 14 freestanding bathrooms, basically, in the city of LA, currently.
Nancy: Wow. That’s doesn’t seem like a lot of bathrooms for millions of inhabitants. What are some of the reasons why there are so few bathrooms?
Maylin: So it’s kind of a complicated question because the reason that we have these 14 public bathrooms is actually rooted in the criminalization of homelessness. And so if we go back to the late 90s, there were business interests, especially in downtown, like the business improvement districts and businesses that were really looking to criminalize public urination and defecation. The downtown business interests were trying to push homeless people out of Skid Row. And so it was all part of that initiative. And so it was introduced in 1999, and then during the course of trying to introduce this new ordinance that would criminalize public urination, the city attorney basically came back and said like, hey, like, if you want to do this, we need to show that there are bathrooms available.
Otherwise, it’s gonna be really hard to actually prosecute in court. because you need to show that there’s a bathroom there. People will be like, well, I would have used it when it wasn’t there. So they sort of linked that ordinance to criminalize public urination to this contract that was supposed to bring more bathrooms to LA. But they ended up just passing it before any of the bathrooms were actually in service. The city council kind of like, had a sense of urgency and they were like, we need to pass this ordinance. And so they ended up criminalizing public urination and defecation in 2003 anyway.
Nancy: Okay. So the contract that the city signed to build bathrooms was actually a bus shelter contract. Um, can you tell me how that happened and how that works?
Maylin: It’s kind of counterintuitive. Like the contract was to build these like 150 public toilets, right? But the public toilets were being paid for through the advertising revenue from bus shelters.
So in order for the toilets to get built, you need the advertising on the bus shelters. So if you don’t build the bus shelters, then you’re not gonna get the toilets or the bus shelters, really.
Nancy: And how did people from wealthy neighborhoods feel about this contract? What did they do?
Maylin: There’s this like resistance also within wealthier neighborhoods they didn’t want, you know, bus shelters in their neighborhoods because they said they didn’t want like the advertising that was on the bus shelters. And so that backlash really just it was just a complete shit show. Like the way that the contract was designed,I want to say that was delayed just like endlessly.
And then each individual council member also had the power to kind of like veto individual bus shelter locations, so they had to sign off on every single one. If they didn’t sign off, the bus shelter would not get built. And so what would happen is like the permits would like come to them and then they would just like sit there because there was no deadline and the council member could just be like, do to do, you know, like basically do nothing and block the bus shelter from being built.
So it’s basically like it was way easier to like — not build a bus shelter. That’s how the contract was really constructed is like put like all these like barriers and obstacles. And I think a lot of that did come from like NIMBYism, you know, not in my backyard. And sort of these anxieties that people had over like bus shelters and therefore like poor people in their communities. Because public transit, especially like buses, are very associated with that in LA. There’s like a stigma attached to that.
But so… It was really dependent on bus shelters being built like a certain number of permits being approved by the city, but there were so many like bureaucratic delays that a lot of shelters just like never got built and therefore there really wasn’t enough revenue for bathrooms and also just the way that the contract was constructed.
Basically, it was like If the city of LA didn’t fulfill the requirements on like the number of permits approved, like LA would only ever get the minimum number of toilets required in the contract, which is 15.
So in the end, we only ended up with 15 and then one was actually taken away. So we ended up with 14.
Nancy: All right, so it’s like they’re coming out saying they’re against the advertisement but when we really know it’s folks not wanting poor people or people who ride the bus in their neighborhood.
Maylin: Maybe. Yeah, I mean, maybe they were also really opposed to ads, but yeah, I think. Yeah, if you really get into it, a lot of problems in LA I feel like are pretty simple, they might seem really complex, like LA being like, oh, we can’t build bathrooms, it’s too expensive and blah, blah. But I feel like if you really like boil it down, I feel like a lot of things are actually pretty simple.
Nancy: And in your reporting, I know there’s a huge correlation between the infrastructure we do have and more anti homeless sentiment. Where else have you seen that in your reporting? Where like, there is some sort of like investment in public infrastructure, but it’s not meant for like the public good or the benefit.
Maylin: So I mean, I think I see this a lot with any, yeah, any kind of infrastructure, especially like in the public right of way, which is like the sidewalk basically. So anything that could be seen as making it, making it more comfortable to like be on the street basically is really, there’s so much like political pushback.
There’s so much resistance to that. Like you see that with bus shelters and NIMBYs. They don’t want a bus shelter in their backyard. And these are people that you generally are pretty wealthy and don’t take the bus. And so –
Nancy: they’re not going to be waiting at that bus stop that has no shade.
Maylin: I don’t think they’re invested in that.
So you see that with these like wealthier neighborhoods really pushing back against bus shelters. And this idea that unhoused people will take refuge there or find shelter there. And then also with public toilets, it’s sort of this idea that, if there’s a toilet and you’re unhoused, it’s like, well, I have this bathroom. Like, I’m never moving inside. I don’t know. It doesn’t make any sense, right? You’re like, but this toilet is here. Like, of course I’m going to stay. It’s just such a weird way of thinking about it, but that’s how people talk about these kinds of public infrastructure.
Nancy: Wow. All right, so public urination and defecation is illegal, right, in the city, and that’s where we’ve seen a lot more criminalization of unhoused folks. And since there’s just so few public bathrooms, we know that folks often, if not most times, have to end up going to a business or asking a business to use their bathroom.
Um, But there’s this municipal law, right, that says that if you have a medical infirmity or an emergency, businesses actually have to let you use the bathroom. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about this ordinance and just why so few folks know about it?
Maylin: Yeah, so, there’s an activist named Adrian Riskin, he was really, I think been influential in shedding light on this, but basically there’s this. It’s, it’s kind of the, actually it, it precedes the criminalization of public urination.
So this is actually passed back in 1988. I think it was intended as sort of like a disability rights issue that a business cannot deny someone access to a bathroom if they’re disabled. And so, but the ordinance itself is like the language is, is pretty is almost like universal in a way because it’s like saying that, like, if you go into a business and you say, and you say, like, I need to use the bathroom because I have this, like, the language is physical infirmity, then by law, they’re required to allow you to use the bathroom.
So it’s not customers only. Like, if there’s a sign that says, like, customers only, that’s not actually the case if —
Nancy: Okay, if you have a physical infirmity, like —
Maylin: Yeah. If you really need to use the bathroom.
Nancy: Like you have the right to use the –
Maylin: Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. So, as you mentioned, right Adrian Riskin is an activist in LA who has done a lot of this bathroom advocacy. So can you tell us about a little bit about his bathroom activism?
Maylin: Yeah, so his group is called the Los Angeles Bathroom Liberation Front, which I think is a really cool name, so the idea is to liberate the bathrooms. So what he does is he goes into businesses or I think in one case it was like a BID. So it was a Business Improvement District and he asked to use the bathroom and he uses the language in the law like because of a physical infirmity. I need immediate access and then if they refuse he just like hands them a copy of the law. And so it’s, it’s more so like education, I think, and, and trying to like, push back against the idea that bathrooms are only for customers or employees or like if you work there.
Nancy: Yeah.And we actually have a video of that, so let’s bring up the audio.
Video: Hey, how are you? I need to use your bathroom if that’s okay. Okay. Okay. Excuse me. I’m from here. Like, are you a merchant or like? No, I’m a person from Los Angeles. Do you have a business around here? No. Okay. If you’re not a business, you can’t use the bathroom. Okay. Um, because of a physical infirmity, I require immediate access to restroom facilities.
This is some information for you. So you’re not going to let me use the bathroom? The law says you have to. Well, the law says you have to. Do you want to talk to your supervisor? You don’t want to talk to… This is your final answer? Okay.
Nancy: Wow, just the fact that the woman is like if you’re not a business You can’t use the bathroom?
Maylin: Yeah, because I think it’s like the Business Improvement District is where he went into. Yeah.
Nancy: Wow. One I think this is amazing that he’s doing this because I’m telling you. I’m a bus rider and I hate when I have to go and you’re just literally like trying to figure out who’s the nicest person or who where do I have a higher chance of getting to use the bathroom so I would just hate like the fact that it gets so hard for folks right it’s so hard for people to just do a simple thing. So we know right that most people actually don’t know about this law unfortunately. So how do Angelenos who don’t know right about this municipal code from your reporting and talking to folks – how do Angelenos cope with the lack of bathrooms? Where where do they go? Where are people going if not these businesses?
Maylin: They are definitely peeing in the streets, is my conclusion. And so people were just, like, they just didn’t have any options. And so… I heard one story, a woman who she was working as a traveling nurse at the beginning of COVID. And so she had her strategy was to go to grocery stores during the day and then gas stations at night. And then if the gas station wouldn’t let her use the bathroom, she would buy something and then pee into the plastic bag that she got with the purchase behind the gas station.
And then sometimes she would be so desperate that she would, like, find one of those, like, construction port-a-potties at a site, like, a locked one, and she would pee into a plastic bag next to the port a potty because she wanted the, she was so afraid of being arrested, basically, and she wanted the cops to know that, like, it was an emergency.
She’s like, I am, I really, I am desperate, okay? Like, and I think just some of the stories were just, like, so fascinating. There was another person who, like, purchased a membership to LA Fitness, not to work out, but just because, so she could use the bathroom when she was like traveling around the city for work and stuff.
People are like, buying these like, travel potties, I think that you can like, keep in your car. It was just like, stuff that I just had never thought about, and I just was really surprised. But yeah, I think people are, people out there definitely peeing in the streets, for sure.
Nancy: Yeah, and I know for me right? I know like I’m a like I mentioned like I’m a bus rider So I have my little pee map. Like, you know, like, I, like, if, like, depending on what route I’m taking, like. Just because I’ve been on the bus my whole life, I just kind of know like, okay, like once I feel the need, I’m just like, okay, where am I? Can I assess a situation?
And it sucks. I know like, like all of us here at LA probably have this pee map of like, we know our little dark corners, you know, or when you go out, especially right assessing the situation where you could go. So, it’s good to know that I’m not the only one, then, that’s out there, peeing in dark corners or wherever.
Maylin: Yeah, I think yeah, there’s this one toilet scholar, Brian Simon, who I interviewed and his premise is that, public bathrooms make mapmakers out of all of us, and so we all have this, like, mental map in our heads of, like, where you can use the bathroom, and depending on who you are, what you look like, your identity, like, the map might be really full, or it might be, like, very sparse, and so it’s just really this, like, measure of inequality and we just don’t have the same, we don’t have the same bathroom maps or pee maps. I like pee maps better, actually.
Nancy: I’m all pee maps. And it’s true because I notice like when I have my backpack with me, like I’m able to get into more places. It’s like, oh, she’s probably a student or things like that. But when I don’t have my backpack, it is harder for me to get into places or like to use bathrooms.
I can just imagine if you’re like, if your clothes aren’t that clean or if you haven’t been able to shower that day or, you know. If you’re a black or brown person, it might be harder to access. Or your, your pee map is definitely, like, altered because of racism, you know, and all those things. So it just sucks, right? Even our pee maps are fucking unequal.
Maylin: Equal pee maps for all,
Nancy: Right? We all need, so we all need equal access to go. All right. So I know that there’s also this push in terms of, like, forcing small businesses or just forcing businesses to open their bathrooms you know, kind of like through Adrian Riskin’s activism of just, like, having businesses know the actual law. But do you think having businesses open their bathrooms, do you think that would work?
Maylin: I mean, ideally, but yeah, I talked to another scholar named Laura Norén and she said something that I thought was really interesting is that it’s not that we don’t have enough bathrooms. There are plenty of bathrooms. But basically If we try to require businesses to open their bathrooms, there would be just a lot of pushback and a lot of resistance. And it’s really hard to sort of try to, police that in a way.
So unfortunately, I don’t think that’s like the solution. it’s like a public issue and it’s like for the public. And so really, the city of LA should be stepping in and providing these things. But unfortunately, it’s offloaded a lot of those like responsibilities onto the private sector. And you don’t see this just with bathrooms. So I think the idea is more for businesses, ultimately, maybe to turn around and put some pressure on the city to say, like, hey, like, this is your job, like, you should be doing this, you shouldn’t be pushing this off on us, like, we’re just these, like, private businesses, like, it shouldn’t be our responsibility.
Nancy: Mm hmm. Yeah, it seems like a public infrastructure situation.
Maylin: It should, I feel like it should be.
Nancy: Like, we’re not the mayor, but it seems like having bathrooms.
Maylin: it seems like somewhere in the government like, we could like, figure this out, you know.
Nancy: The other thing that’s been on my mind, and I’m sure a lot of people’s minds is that we have the Olympics, right? The Olympics are coming to LA in 2028 and it’s a big right sporting event. It’s where we’re going to see a big influx of folks. So are there any plans from your reporting or your investigation to increase the access like our public bathroom access for the Olympics? Is there anyone championing that or what does it look like out there?
Maylin: It’s really bleak. I think when I first started writing about this, I was, like, just going to different agencies and basically, like, asking them if they had any plans and, like, really not getting anything back. So there was this, directive that the LA City Council passed, basically directing the Board of Public Works to meet with these other agencies and come up with,
suggestions for an expanded public toilet program. So the idea is that because LA is now managing these 14 public toilets. So it was like, oh, this is like an opportunity. We could get more toilets.
I mean, I don’t know if that was the plan, but as far as I can tell, it’s not really happening. So I started asking the Board of Public Works last year like, hey, what’s the status of this expanded public toilet report? Like, what’s going on? And, I followed up again, April and May and then just recently, actually. And basically they were like, oh, we’ve identified partners to meet with. And then I think today they sent me a statement that was like, we’re going to send these other agencies a survey and they’re gonna make suggestions, and then if the city council requests it, we’ll create a report.
And I was just like, what does that even mean? But anyway, I guess what I’m trying to say is like, it doesn’t seem to be happening. That’s just my non-expert opinion on that. Yeah.
Nancy: Wow, that’s scary. That’s scary only because it’s the Olympics, right? So you think that there would at least be some planning,
Maylin: Yeah, I mean, Streets LA. So they’re the ones managing the program right now. And they also manage like the bus shelter program. But I feel like they have never wanted to manage public toilets. And they’re trying to push that responsibility off into another agency. I don’t think the other agency is there to like, sort of take the responsibility because I don’t think anyone wants to deal with this shit.
Nancy: Wow, literally no one gives a shit.
Maylin: I do want to say though, I did find this one thing where in Hollywood, they’re trying to open a public bathroom. You know, politically, there may be a lot of pushback with that, but there’s like over a million tourists visiting Hollywood, and there’s no, bathrooms. So you can imagine, like, how bad it is.
Nancy: Yeah, especially because it’s such a big tourist central. Yeah.
Maylin: So apparently there’s a public bathroom that’s supposed to be opening up, and it’s going to be managed by the bid by the Business Improvement District. And I think that’s like, I mean, that’s fascinating to me because I know that they’ve been trying to do that for like literal decades. And I’m like, what changed? Maybe it is the Olympics. Maybe they’re like, okay, we just can’t live like this anymore.
Nancy: Yeah, we’ll keep an eye out for sure, Hopefully no one stops it. So I know another common sense solution or a question I always have too is in terms of adding more bathrooms is like why there aren’t any more bathrooms in Metro stations, right? Do you know if there’s any efforts underway for Metro to incorporate more bathrooms?
Maylin: Yeah, that was a question that I had too, because I hear it a lot. I was like, people think that there should be bathrooms in Metro stations, which I mean, I agree with.
There are three locations that have them, but really it’s really like sparse. But yeah, so I did ask Metro, I said, hey, do you have any plans to add permanent bathrooms for the Olympics? And there was actually kind of like a wish list of projects that they were going to do for the Olympics, and there were some bathroom facilities listed on that, but when I followed up with Metro, they basically said, there’s no plan to add permanent bathrooms on Metro property, yeah.
Nancy: So it’s like, people are traveling very long distances, you’d think that, like, at least in Metro there would be a champion. So it’s just really disheartening to see that there are currently no plans.
Maylin: Yeah, I mean, it’s really an issue that can restrict people’s lives and restrict their mobility and their ability to, like, move around and just, like, live and be in the city, especially for people who don’t own a car or, like, you know, don’t have access to, like, reliable transportation. Like, it’s a huge issue.
Nancy: So I know, right, LA, our access to public toilets is, is terrible, right? with no plans really in sight for the Olympics but compared to other cities, how bad is LA in terms of our access to public bathrooms?
Maylin: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s pretty bad in the US in general. I think Iceland was the top bathroom haver. Yeah, I think, like, LA, there was this, like, UK toilet supply site that did, like, a state of the bathrooms or something, and they said that LA had 189 public bathrooms total, and they got that from an app called Pee Place. I’m assuming that it just includes, like, other kinds of public bathrooms, so not just, like, these freestanding ones, but also, like, bathrooms in libraries or parks or maybe municipal buildings, so it’s a larger number, but those are not, like, existing in the public right of way, like, where everyone can use them.
And so that worked out to roughly like five bathrooms per 100, 000 people. And so that was… pretty bad. I think LA was like 57th in terms of like the list of like us cities. So yeah, it’s not great.
Nancy: Wow. That’s really bad. Okay, so I know another solution in terms of like what could be possible solutions to our nowhere to go problem. toilets where you have to pay to access, right?
Have you seen this as part of the city’s plan at all where it’s kind of like, okay, we’ll let you use it if you could pay for it.
Maylin: Yeah, so I guess we did used to have pay toilets, but then there was a movement. Like, in the seventies, I believe, that really wanted to make toilets, like, free for everyone.
And I think the intentions were really good. And they were trying to make, you know, it more equitable, basically. But what happened is when they did away with, like, paid toilets, the government, it didn’t step in and, like, provide public toilets for free. So we’re just like, have less toilets.
So, I think one thing reporting this like is my mindset is kind of shifted on this is which is which is that We do have pay toilets, but it’s usually like a Starbucks or like cafe where you have to buy a cup of coffee. And this is something that again, Brian Simon talks about is that for the middle class, like Starbucks basically is like our version of a public toilet.
Yeah, it’s like we’re willing to pay, like, five dollars to use the bathroom, which is bizarre in a way. But it kind of, in a way it like works out well for the city because like they don’t have to provide toilets and then for businesses like they make money off of that like basic human need that people have and then something that Adrian Riskin said was just like by criminalizing public urination like you create this world where half of half of the people are customers and half are criminals and so it’s just like this really convenient way to sort of keep everyone almost like internalizing like the blame for not having access to a restroom because it’s like there’s so much like shame and like guilt and like which is just again, it’s kind of bizarre because it is such a basic human need that everyone has, and yet it’s attached to all this, like, shame over, you know, needing a bathroom, of all things.
Nancy: Yeah. And then it forced you to be a consumer, ‘cause –
Maylin: Yeah.
Nancy: If you gotta go and you don’t wanna like stress out about it too much, but you have income, you could pay your five bucks to use. I know I’ve done it. I would ask someone else for the code before. I felt like I was more savvy when I was younger, but now I’m just like, I gotta go, give me my latte and the damn bathroom code and I’ll be on my way.
I would say too at the markets like I know like where I get off on one bus to go to the other one There’s a Ralph’s and I know it has a bathroom. And every time I go in there, I make sure to buy something too so I’m just like fuck I don’t need to think i’m just using the bathroom. But why can’t I just go in there and use the bathroom? Like why is it that? I feel so guilty and like so I’ll go in there and I’ll be like, okay, I’ll use the bathroom. I’ll be like, okay what do I need at the house? Do we need eggs? Do we need milk? And like Ralph’s is expensive. Like that is not where I would go shopping That’s just where I go because it has a bathroom, you know.
Maylin: Where I mean, I kind of wonder too, like, that story that, that woman was telling me was like, you know, there’s also so much like fear of like being caught, like being caught in the act and being like arrested and like criminalized. And I kind of wonder too, if like having everyone like living in that kind of fear, like keeps us also from like finding solidarity with the unhoused or just like each other because we’re all just so afraid of like, I don’t want to be arrested for like breaking the law.
Instead of like, why am I peeing outside of a locked porta potty at like 11 PM at night? Like, what is this?
Nancy: Yeah, on the flip side, what you said is like, once you’re no longer able to be a consumer, you become a criminal. I know this happens a lot when I try to go to like a convenience store, it’s like, randomly out of order, you know, like then you just become criminalized because you have to use the street, right?
Maylin: Yeah.
Nancy: We could all easily become criminalized folks out there just for having to go, you know, it’s really messed up
Well, thank you so much, Maylin, for your reporting on the bathroom situation in LA. I think definitely as the Olympics come, it’ll be interesting to see if there is any movement or if there is a champion that emerges from the trenches. But we’ll definitely keep our listeners updated. And thank you so much for getting your reporting and coming on the show today.
Maylin: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Nancy: That was Maylin Tu, our bathrooms correspondent.
You can find the story Maylin wrote about the municipal law on bathrooms at our website, lapublicpress.org. You can also find all of her other reporting on bathrooms and the criminalization of poverty.
We’ll be riiiight back.
And last up on the show today… We’ve got a dispatch from Anzen. It’s a hardware store on First Street, in Little Tokyo.
In a city dominated by Ace, Lowe’s and Home Depot… Anzen is one of the few (actual) mom and pop hardware stores that’s still standing. It’s the kinda place you could go in and have a long conversation with the owner about gardening shears. Or whatever.
It’s also got Japanese knives, and other imported tools you can’t find in the big box hardware stores.
But now, it’s closed its First Street location.
Its longtime owner, Nori Takatani, is retiring.
He had run the store since 1954. And community members threw him a party to celebrate his decades of service.
Anzen is just the latest historic business to shut down in Little Tokyo in recent months. As you’ve heard on this show,our beloved Japanese restaurant Suehiro is also closing just a few doors down.
But it’s not all bad news.
Takatani has transferred ownership to Philip Hirose and his family — whose grandfather is actually the original owner of Anzen!
Philip: The next store may not always be this busy. But, uh… So appreciative of the support and love and a lot of people have already pitched ideas of things that we can do, should do, or things that they would like to see. And I think that, um, we’re gonna lead with that spirit because we know that, uh, the community, the store is the community’s and not just ours.
Nancy: They’re planning to reopen the store in Little Tokyo after a short break. We’ll update you on that right here on Smogland Radio.
Smogland Radio is produced by Phoenix Tso and Carla Green. I’m your host, Nancy Meza. We’re a production of LA Public Press, a non-profit newsroom for Los Angeles.
Eduardo Arenas made our music, and Jaime Zacarias made our show art. Special thanks to the Robinson Space where we record this podcast! And to public bathroom activist Adrian Riskin.
Additional music by Epidemic Sound.
Also – we’re a newsroom funded entirely by donations!
If you like the work that we do, you can support us by becoming a member at lapublicpress.org slash donate.
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Thank you so much for listening.
We’ll see you right back here in a couple weeks for our next episode.